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Ross Apr 26, 2015
I’ve found that when you try to move the front shoulder down, you’re dead. That move, does not wind around the spine and causes other issues. The Large Muscles Drill, shows how the shoulders turn around the spine, when upright. Then, you have to take that same feeling of turning around your spine, and do it once you’re setup and there is a bit of “tilt” to your spine. Takes practice, but there is a freedom turning the shoulders around the spine when done correctly. If it feels “labored” or you can’t turn the shoulders very far, you’re probably not turning them correctly. You can also feel your back shoulder “pull” towards your spine (not up). You want to get this down, because every club is a different length and your spine angle will change a little between clubs.Ross Aug 26, 2014
It is the hips or body that start the downswing JoeJacksonQ. The downswing unwinds from ground up, just like throwing a ball. You want to find what works for you. You do NOT start the downswing with the shoulders. The shoulders are done when the backswing ends. I rewrote a little bit of (post #4) since it could be misinterpreted as you did (sorry). Please re-read.Ross Aug 25, 2014
Yes, very close… especially the little pre-shot move he makes just before he takes his backswing… it is all shoulders (moving the arms and club as one piece)… then on the real takeaway, he uses his shoulders to move the arms/club. Then on the downswing, you see a lot of body turn, but since he hinged, he needs to release, so the body pauses a bit. He has a great golf swing.Hunter too. He has been close for years, but he too hinges and opens the club face, hence the shots missed to the right, when he does not get the club back to square in time, because he rolled the face open (on the backswing) and his rotation leaves the arms/hands behind a bit and he can’t get the face square in time.
Ross Aug 25, 2014
Hi JoeJacksonQ
First, with my method, there is no need for the term “swing plane”. Swing plane sends a signal to the brain, like an area that you will need to control… like a place you can take your hands/arms/club so things are “right”. It does not exist. There are too many non-repeatable levers (hands, wrists, elbows, arms, shoulders, spine tilt etc.) to ever be consistent. Every club and shot (condition) will dictate a different plane.Second, your setup should be Athletic. Bent over is the worst possible thing anyone can do in golf …for any shot …period! You can’t maintain it… the body wants to “right itself” during the swing… and you can hurt your back (because the lower back muscles are trying to keep you “out of balance”).
The most repeatable method is to setup Athletically (I have many videos and posts on this) and Balanced… then use the Shoulders turning around your spine to control the arms/club (as you keep the club face square), for the backswing… and then the body’s rotation unwinding, for the downswing. You are starting to see more and more tour players trying to using rotation for more consistency. The big key is to keep the hands out, so the Large Muscles can take over.
Ross Oct 01, 2021
The height the arms/club travel “up” (as you say) is different for every golfer depending on their body size, type and height… and the amount of tilt each golfer has in their spine, depending on the club selection and course conditions (level ground, on a slope, ball above/below). Age and flexibility is another factor that limits the shoulder turn.Now, your friends mean well, but actually lifting your arms higher does not necessarily equal more distance. It does equal disconnection from the Large muscles and the chance for more inconsistency with many factors, but usually, the arms/club getting left behind is one of the first. Keep in mind that if done correctly, the shoulders will move the arms/club up roughly perpendicular to the spine angle. Your maximum distance is about how efficiently you wind up and unwind and how square the club face returns, and how close to the sweet spot on the club face you make contact. There are other factors.
There is a difference in actually lifting the arms in the backswing and the arms being moved by the shoulders. The arms may continue slightly at the top of the backswing due to the momentum of being moved by the shoulders. This can happen to golfers with a faster backswing. I’m not suggesting to speed up your backswing, I’m only mentioning that there might be a little more momentum at a faster pace and it may take the arms/club slightly higher. This must be done by the shoulders or you’ll disconnect.
Ross jul 23, 2021
The chest stays in position and it does rotate due to the shoulders turning, but does not slide towards the back foot at all. At first, the hips and lower body hold while the shoulders start to turn, then when the shoulders can’t turn anymore without the hips turning, the hips are turned a little by the shoulders continuing to turn. It is a wind up from “Top down” like a rubber band. Once again, the chest will rotate, but not slide towards the back foot… it will not shift or move off the ball. Keeping at least 60% of your weight forward during the backswing will help this.Ross Jul 18, 2021 ยท Edited
Yes, partly, depending on which/who’s definition you choose to attach to the term. All I know is Carl Lohren noticed long ago that Ben Hogan would start the back swing (or takeaway) using his shoulders first to move the club and arms. Hogan also had a drawing in his 5 Lessons book, of the arms close together with a rope wrapped around them keeping them close together. I have used both of these concepts to develop our takeaway or start of the back swing. I have changed and added my own tweaks to improve the ideas. Many other instructors add hinging and redirecting to try to control swing plane and add distance at a great cost to consistency with no benefits. The best thought is to keep it simple … learn the duplessisgolf setup, and just use your “shoulders” only to move the arms and club. Hope this answers your question.Ross Aug 09, 2017
Sorry, no. I don’t like “positions” or a view of what something is supposed to look like. Every golfer is different, moves different and has a different body make up. If a student thinks they are not doing something right… they’ll manipulate their arms or wrists during the swing to try to get to a “position” and the position might not fit their body type.I’d prefer talking over a students swing video, they send me, so I can help correct something the right way. It may be a “setup” issue that changes the “look” at the top of the backswing vs. the student trying to manufacture the look during the swing. I hope this makes sense. If you’re not sure, send me a Down The Line swing video (no charge) and I’ll take a look.
Ross Dec 09, 2014
If you front shoulder is hurting, something is not right. You may be turning too far. You may be pushing down instead of around your shoulders. You may want to feel both shoulders turn around your spine, or the back shoulder pull towards your spine. If your do the Large Muscles Drill, you should experience the same feeling… freedom and no pain.As far as “how far” or an example…everyone is different. It is not how far you wind up… it is more how fast and complete you rotate on the downswing. The forward movement is KEY! The backswing is just the preparation for the downswing. This is just like throwing a ball… you don’t take your arm back farther, you just turn through faster and accelerated and complete.
Ross Dec 09, 2014
Hi Spartan
The back arm does NOT attach to the side of the body. The arms are controlled by the shoulders. Yes the back arm does bend a little, but the main goal for the arms are for the elbows to stay close together. This helps defeat the arms from working on their own or lifting on their own (which disconnects from the body/shoulders). If the shoulders are allowed to control the arms/club, the large muscles can take control and easily return the arms/club back to impact correctly (essentially, how they started).Usually, you can learn with short backswings and then lengthen as the shoulders take more and more control. As you lengthen, you will usually find a point where the arms/hands take over trying to add more… that’s when things break down. The more you can control that “break down”, the more consistent your swing will become.
Ross Apr 28, 2020
If your issue is raising up in the backswing and then back down (or lower) in the downswing, you want to find out what is making you feel the need to raise up or what is raising you up.Example 1: Your chin is buried in your chest, (maybe a vision/glasses issue) at setup and there is no room for your shoulders to turn without bumping into your face, so your head moves up out of the way or is moved by your shoulders as they turn*… then on the downswing, the head tries to return.
Example 2: You start the backswing using your shoulders, but midway your arms/hands start lifting to help, and this movement raises you and your head/chest up a bit, so the “action/reaction” is for the head/chest to return and many times they actually drop lower than where they were at setup**.
Example 3: You setup “out-of-balance”… “non-athletic”… with your chest hanging out over your toes. Your weight should never be on your toes. The first thing the body will try to do is “right” your balance or “center” you and you will fight trying to keep your tilt/posture out-of-balance out over your toes. PLUS, that position activates your lower back muscles to help hold you out of balance and causes many back problems and restricts your backswing***.
* Answer to this is to setup with your chin raised up a bit allowing your shoulders to turn freely under your chin. You’ll feel like your looking down your nose.
** Answer, learn and practice using only your shoulders to move your arms/club to the top of your backswing. Your head/chest won’t raise up and there will be no need to return or drop on the downswing.
*** Watch “Athletic Setup” Lesson video in the “Setup” section. Learn what an athletic setup feels like and practice setting up Athletically and “In-balance”.Ross Apr 28, 2020
Not sure which aspect you mean Ed. Keeping your shoulders level? or keeping your head and chest from moving up and down during the swing?Ross Oct 04, 2021
Hi Ed
I think you’re talking about the 60 Audio Tips. I don’t have specific drills for each tip, but if you’re not sure, just contact me and I’ll help you decide. Thanks for your dedication !!WTG on the eagle Dave! I’ve always thought a big part of the enjoyment is the process, so when you put together 3 great shots, you could reflect on the hard work and practice that lead up to the result ?